Maggie [00:00:01] Welcome to the Hearts and Minds Podcast, Conversations on Impact and Investing. I'm Maggie O'Neill, thank you for joining us today.
Hearts and Minds is a unique philanthropic organisation. It consists of an ASX listed investment company, HM1 and Sohn Hearts & Minds, an annual conference that gathers provocative thinkers for a one day event like no other. Together, Hearts and Minds is proud to support leading Australian medical research organisations and since 2016 we have donated over $65 million.
In this podcast series, we are bringing you in on meaningful conversations, on impact and investing to discover more about the incredible people in the hearts and minds ecosystem.
Today, it is my pleasure to introduce this episode with Professor Nadia Badawi, a pioneer in cerebral palsy research. I hope you enjoy this conversation. Hosted by Hearts Minds CEO Paul Rayson.
Paul [00:00:53] Hi, I'm Paul Rayson, your host for this conversation today. I'm delighted to be here with Professor Nadia Badawi. Professor Badawi is an internationally recognised neonatologist and expert in cerebral palsy and newborn brain conditions. Nadia is renowned for her research into newborn intensive care, newborn encephalopathy and cerebral palsy. Nadia is also Cerebral Palsy Alliance's Chair of Research at the University of Sydney and Medical Director and Co-Head for the Grace Centre for Newborn Intensive Care at the Children's Hospital at Westmead. Nadia has also led teams that have made great progress in reducing the rate and severity of cerebral palsy over the last 20 years, and improve the quality of life of thousands of children and adults with cerebral palsy.
Welcome, Nadia, I'm excited to chat with you today and keen to find out more about Cerebral Palsy and why you do this challenging but no doubt rewarding job. So I thought, let's start with your early life and upbringing. I wonder, was there a moment, you know, you grew up in Egypt and later moved to Ireland before coming to Australia? Was there a moment in your growing up, or were there influences in your upbringing that led you to the field of healthcare and specifically newborn intensive care?
Prof Nadia [00:02:13] The moment probably came a week before university started. I'd always planned to do English literature, and I loved reading all my life. I was not a very good student. That's what I wanted to do. English language. I came from a family of people who loved the arts. There was no moment except it must have happened when I found myself writing the week before university started Curry University writing medicine, and I shocked myself and the guy who was sorting out the students came over and said, you can't just write one thing. And then he looked at my marks and said, well, actually, you can. And then I went home and I had to confront my mother. My father was Egyptian, my mother was Irish, and my mother was horrified that I was doing medicine. She thought it was a waste of a life. It was a trade. No judgement on anyone in the trades. We all need them. But she really didn't see medicine as something that was worth pursuing intellectually, and I think she worried at the time that women also would find it hard to find a place in medicine, especially, you know, from that era. You can imagine how people felt about having she thought I'd never marry, never have children, and that my life would be miserable down her words. But I think when I look back, I think probably it was happening a long time in my childhood. My grandparents had suffered a lot during their own childhood, so my Irish grandmother was the only survivor of 3 or 4 siblings, and she would tell my mother that she remembers standing in the church, behind three little white coffins, and they had died. We don't know whether it was scarlet fever or diphtheria. And then my mother was her only child because she married very late, and she had my mother. And then my mother nearly died of pneumonia. So we had this knowledge that health, even in Ireland, a country that's well off, was something that was very tenuous and affects certain people in the community, children at a devastating cost to everyone. And so I think in all our families, the talk of health affecting young people, I think I realised in retrospect had been something I saw that constantly changed people's lives. And it does. Poor health affects children disproportionately and women really their health is not looked up. They don't get into research trials. I mean, even in a country like Australia, most of the drugs that we are on have not been tried out in children. And women. We have a couple of people in my family with disabilities. I realised perhaps very late. You know, we have very little insight. I think I'm quite insightful but realised I have little insight into myself sometimes. And it was in my 30s. I realised that I was being pushed by my family experience.
Paul [00:05:19] Well, that is amazing, that a bit of destiny in there that even though you decided formally just before university, there were all these factors in your background that led you down this path. So let's move to cerebral palsy. I don't think, you know, the public has a good understanding of cerebral palsy. And so can you give us a general description of the condition? I know there are categories, but the incidence rate, its causes and you know, the impact on each child.
Prof Nadia [00:05:48] It's a woefully under-recognized condition. Unfortunately, despite our best efforts to make the public aware, despite the fact that it's the most common physical disability of childhood and affects children for their lifetime into adulthood, it's still under-recognized. And I think that's historical. I think its characteristics are varied. So not every person with cerebral palsy looks like the other person. So some people are in a wheelchair, have intellectual disability, some people have a high IQ or can walk. So the picture is so varied. And I think again, history is against us, it was known that brain damage, it is brain damage to the developing brain of a baby. And it was thought to happen mainly around the time of birth. So that really hampered research, even though people like Sigmund Freud had in fact been saying for decades, this can't be right. It can't just be around birth. That's just the moment when you see the baby. But what's been happening through the nine months of pregnancy. So he was really ahead of his time. I think eventually, thanks to the work of people like Fiona Stanley in person, my mentor and I did my PhD with her Australian of the year in 2012, who took a real gamble on me, and I did my PhD with her. She had set up the first register in Australia for people with cerebral palsy, and she and her co-investigator, Eve Blair, had realised that actually, the brain damage that we call cerebral palsy usually happens during the pregnancy. Very little is related to an accident around the time of birth. So they transformed the agenda, what we call epidemiology, which is the science of populations. And they put Australia on the map literally was this country which to the rest of the world is very far away and with a small population, but was leading the way in this field. So now we know what it is. And thanks to that education I got with Fiona and Eve and Jenny Curran took other people in Perth. We then started the Australian Register. This is the largest register of people who live with cerebral palsy in the world, and we now have a much better idea what the variables or the things that underpin cerebral palsy.
Paul [00:08:28] Well, that that's interesting because I think people still do think well, those that do give it some thought think that it is mostly trauma during labour, but you've shown and others before you've shown that that's not the case, which raises opportunities for, you know, pregnancy health prevention, genetics and and even virus I think is, is one of the causes.
Prof Nadia [00:08:50] So largely due to the thinking that cerebral palsy is related to an accident at birth or a lack of oxygen around the time of birth. We have one of the highest caesarean section rates in the world. I'm not against caesarean sections, but why we need to do them for the right reasons. They are invasive. It's an operation for a baby to be born and it wasn't reducing cerebral palsy. But now we know that prematurity being born too early is a very big risk factor. Nearly 50% of all people with cerebral palsy were born prematurely. We also know that genetics. I was never told that. I was told that 1% of cerebral palsy had a genetic basis. But thanks to the research that we've been doing, we now know that 30 to 40% of cerebral palsy has a genetic basis. And we took a gamble at the Cerebral Palsy Alliance and funded the first study in the world in Adelaide. Professor MacLennan and his team, and they showed this amazing result that a lot of it is genetic. We now know that a common virus that most women have never heard of called cytomegalovirus, CMV, nearly everybody has had it or been exposed to it. It's associated with about 10% of cerebral palsy. So we're making all these breakthroughs. And it's not just us. It's working with governments, with philanthropists, with teams, with scientists, with health professionals, not only in Australia but around the world. And when I went into this field, I remember people saying to me, oh, it's such a hopeless cause. What are you doing the cerebral palsy for? Why are you wasting your life? Of course, I have a very personal reason to not think I'm wasting my life there, but also working with parents in newborn intensive care when they were so scared that their child would survive and have a disability. So we've changed things. We've made it, I think, a very exciting field. Now we have hundreds of people that we support and research, and I think those to see those improvements over time, has been I think I pinch myself every so often because we've been more successful than we ever thought we would be. So we now have a 40% drop in the rate of cerebral palsy in Australia in the last two decades.
Paul [00:11:17] And that's extraordinary. That's worth pausing on. It's a 40% decrease in the rate of cerebral palsy largely led out of Australia. But yes with some glad with the team effort.
Prof Nadia [00:11:30] Definitely. You know I work in newborn intensive care as you know, half the time. And parents will say to me the two questions are is my baby going to survive? And nowadays we can say thanks to the amazing health system and social system that we. In Australia, they're very likely to. Mortality in newborn intensive care units is plummeting. So in my unit, it's under 3% mortality. That's a huge change in just 20 years. I mean, when I started in my unit, the first weekend, four babies died. And I remember going home to my hospital and saying, John, I'm not sure I can stick this. I'm pretty resilient. I'm pretty tough. I've worked in some pretty harrowing situations, but I'm not sure that I can do this. Anyway, we collaborated with parents and a whole lot of things. It's been a huge, massive change. But then the very next question parents ask is. What's my Charles quality of life going to be like if they survive? It's a question every parent thinks of. And nowadays we can say that, well, they're less likely to have a disability. And should they have a disability. And this is what I find incredibly heartwarming, is that it's more likely to be mild, so that child is more likely to be able to walk to talk, less likely to have epilepsy or convulsions, and less likely to have intellectual disability. Those questions course come in all sorts of guises. I'm asked, Will they play footy? Will they get married? Will they be in the basketball team? You know, will they play cards? Well, it's interesting the way, but the question comes in various forms.
Paul [00:13:16] I've known you for a little while now, but. And it's, you know, that I'm a brilliant researcher, but your compassion and care for babies and their families really does shine through. And the intensive care unit can be a pretty frightening, place for families. A lot of unknowns. And often diagnosis doesn't happen early on, but. But you know, how how do you manage that with families? You know, day in, day out?
Prof Nadia [00:13:42] I think I've been really lucky that I started at a time of change in thinking. When I started medicine, it was very autocratic. The doctor says. There was this idea that the doctor would dictate. They would go on rounds and white coats, surrounded by nurses who would write down every word, and the patient would usually be sitting in the bed obediently, not asking questions. That started to go. And I'm delighted to have been part of that, because that's not how I want to practice medicine. I really love working with parents who are very smart, knowledgeable. The internet has been my biggest ally, strangely enough, because, parents, I would say to the parents, you're going to Google. Go ahead. Come and tell me what you find and let's talk about it. We really want parents to be at the bedside during the handover. And increasingly, myself and the nurses will turn around and say to them, well, do you agree with what we've said? My next dream is that parents will actually be presenting the case of their own baby and telling us what they think. That's the next thing. It's starting in some countries. So I think having informed parents who are really collaborating with us, pull us up when they don't agree with what we do. It's a much more humane place. The nurses are unbelievable. Nurses who do neonatal intensive care are a very special breed of human. They're smart. They're incredibly compassionate and motivated, and they see themselves as the advocate for the parent. Some people rail against university system education for nurses, but I think it's been an a massive breakthrough because they come really knowledgeable. They really inform us they've got a good knowledge of science and maths, and the status of nursing has been a big part in the improvement of our outcomes. So they help support all of us, you know, the things that we do that supposedly, you know, we do it to help the parents, but they actually help us. So when I, you know, kangaroo care, for instance, something that we knew not to do because we all we can't put a bit sick baby on their parents chest. Look at all the lines. What if the ventilator tube comes out? It actually makes me feel happy too. So not only does the parent and the baby feel happy, but makes me feel very warm to see that that we're not interfering with the bond between families when parents write and diaries because we ask them to journal as well their own experience of what's happening, that also gives them more strength and gives us strength. When I see them reading with their babies, singing with their babies, and speaking up, it makes it a much more humane place. In the end, it's about humanity. We talk about science, but it's more about human interactions. And I really love working with families who push back and say, no, no, we read this. You know, my friend has had premature babies. This is what they think. And then I feel we're really doing something very special. It's about a community, and I'm very much loved to be part of a community.
Paul [00:17:14] Yeah. That you've touched on something there. I've been to the Kids intensive care unit quite a few times now, but it's the change. You've described that from a very clinical cold environment where parents were only welcome during visiting hours. They're now very much part of their child's treatment. And the kangaroo cuddles, which is, you know, the importance of touch to a newborn where parents can hold their baby, despite having, you know, wires all over them. That is a wonderfully human thing that does, I'm sure makes a huge difference to baby and parents and everybody. So that is wonderful. But you've also touched on the nurses. We shouldn't under emphasise that they do an amazing job. They are very, very special people and, you know, their lives improved a lot, but there's still a long way to go. But to do what they do day in, day out is very special and we're lucky to have them here in Australia. Yes.
Prof Nadia [00:18:08] Very lucky.
Paul [00:18:09] Let's change tech to research. There has been a lot of improvements that have led to the reduction in the incidence rate. But what's the future hold for for research what still to come. What are the unknowns we're trying to break through on.
Prof Nadia [00:18:24] So these results have really given us incredible hope. And we're searching for more preventative strategies. That's a really important area. We're working more and more. We're working about the understanding of the genetics. So we now know that genetic that's just in the last decade that genetics underpins a lot of cerebral palsy. But what does it mean. Because I've had twins, identical twins, identical DNA. One has cerebral palsy and the other doesn't. So it's not just a matter of simple DNA. It's also how that baby's DNA interacts with the environment. So even when they're in the same uterus, they have a slightly different environmental. So we need to unpick a lot of it. This is just the beginning. So there is a genomics really revolution happening. And we're working with people around the world to try and explain what do those genetic findings mean, because we hope that the genetic findings will give us better treatments I can have. Three children with cerebral palsy, two will respond to a drug for epilepsy and the other doesn't. I think why? So we think maybe it's something in their genetics. We'll be looking at genetic therapy that's coming. So that's a whole area again we just started. Cytomegalovirus CMV, this common virus, like every poor pregnant woman knows, don't eat soft cheese and don't eat the salad in the cafeteria. But actually, they are rare cause it's very important but rare causes of disability. Those infections where cytomegalovirus infects about 4000 babies a year in Australia, 400 of whom are left with either profound deafness or other neurological disabilities. We have got to do something there. So we're launching a national campaign educating midwives and doctors who know about it, but actually have never thought of it as an injurious factor. So again, a whole lot of work around infections. We're also looking at technology, assistive technology. And I have to credit our CEO, Rob white. Technology was his dream. And he's right. People with cerebral palsy who will say the two things I want are to be able to communicate and be able to be mobile. So we have a team. We've collaborated with a marvellous engineer, Alastair McEwan at Sydney Uni and his team. So I'm now getting to work with a whole lot of engineers who have a very different way of looking at things. So I say to them, you know, health is the future of engineering. And they go back and say, engineering's the future of health. And I think this truth in that, I think the beauty of it is that we have our health professionals collaborating with engineers, because I hate to say it, but engineers can often invent things that no one ever wants to use. So this collaboration and we can introduce them to people with disabilities whom they can engage with. I think they're really important breakthroughs. And look, all of us are going to if we live long enough, we're going to have a disability. So I want that team working for me. You know, if I when I develop dementia or have a stroke, seizures, this is really changing things.
Paul [00:21:48] Mobility and communication are the two biggest challenges. And you're right technology can make a big difference in both those areas.
Prof Nadia [00:21:55] I think the other thing too, about technology is that the babies in the newborn intensive care are monitored continuously, but the human eye can only detect really big changes. But we know that there are millions of data points being accumulated. And I still have babies who come to the clinic. And I think now, why do you have a disability? Nothing happened. So are we missing something? And that's where we want to use machine learning, artificial intelligence technology to see if we can monitor the babies better during the pregnancy, but also after they're born. And see, can we prevent damaging, you know, insults.
Paul [00:22:38] So that's interesting. So this is very early observation of the baby. You know, maybe nutrition and shortly thereafter. Yeah. Taking all those observation points, using AI to see what is normal and what might not be normal, which leads to potentially early diagnosis.
Prof Nadia [00:22:54] Yes.
Paul [00:22:54] Prevention or prevention. Yeah. But the earlier the better because the brain is still very adaptable and multiple at that young age and can improve outcomes.
Prof Nadia [00:23:02] So yes, definitely. I mean, I still remember when I was working in Perth, I had a little girl who was one of the children in my PhD study, and she had a massive, massive stroke. Half of her brain was just damaged and she had quite a severe cerebral palsy. Half her body couldn't move. Her parents were very upset and we monitored her. And she had definite cerebral palsy, definite cerebral palsy. And then at the age of three, she walked into the clinic and we could not see any difference. She was just like a typically developing child. And I still remember us making that poor child run upstairs dance. We thought there has to be something. But some way her brain, the healthy side, had just taken over. Most of her parents were very, very clever people who are good at maths, and they were doing a lot of things at home, reading with her, and she just grew out of cerebral palsy, and even the neurologist came to have a look at her. So that little girl, she taught me that we can do more if we get in early. Not everybody's going to have a result as dramatic as that. Again. What? So I wonder what was her genetics.
Paul [00:24:21] But that is amazing. So that goes to the neuroplasticity of the brain which gives hope for so we'll. But also for the older, the ageing diseases as well. So that gives a lot of hope. So, Nadia, you know, research and better care for newborns with cerebral palsy obviously requires funding, which is always a constant challenge. Now, I know research into cerebral palsy is very dependent on philanthropic funding, but to me, that seems like a pretty fragile system, you know, with the care and lives of newborns are dependent on philanthropy, which does come and go. It seems fragile. But I think you've said in the past that simple things like equipment and training can make a big difference. So a little bit can make a big difference. Is that.
Prof Nadia [00:25:15] Right? Yeah. Look, I used to get very frustrated about the funding model. And it is right that children's conditions don't get adequate funding. Or they put it another way, they get a very small part of funding. I think it's because babies and children really can't advocate for themselves. And there was this sense of hopelessness. People really did think that cerebral palsy couldn't change anything. So what was the point of putting money into it? When we started the Research Foundation for Cerebral Palsy, there was only $1 million had been invested that year, funding bodies into cerebral palsy directly. So it was a very small base to start with. But when we started showing success and what could be done with a small amount of money, that actually has increased, a lot of the people we worked with, where we were, the first grants they ever got, are now bringing in a lot of serious government funding. And because we follow them up, I want to know, have these people succeeded? Success does breed interest, of course. So there is more funding. Is it enough? Of course it isn't. But I suppose people who are philanthropists, either as individuals or as groups of people, they've been successful in their own fields. They think differently. They can take a risk that governments maybe can't. And I think philanthropists who work in areas that are different to health, they have a big picture view, a lot of them, and they are ready to put money into big picture things. Governments have to keep everything running, but philanthropists can take a gamble on something big that's life changing, that's visionary. I'm not so despairing of the fact that we are so dependent in this area on philanthropic funding. I think that actually gives a little bit of freedom to think big and plan big and go into areas that governments again, are worried about. Some of our biggest successes have come from people who are clever and daring themselves, taking a gamble in this area. So I've reconciled that position while also pursuing government funding very actively. And we have had a lot of support from the Australian government. Is it enough? No, of course not. But they are seeing success and I think we'll just see more and more and we ask endlessly, I've got my hand out all the time for the cause. I think we'll get there.
Paul [00:28:04] Yeah, yeah, that's good to hear about philanthropy. And, and as you know, hearts and minds focus on that higher risk. Yes. Philanthropy which is good. But but government. Do you think the business case for governments would be better? You know, you're dealing with newborns who have a whole life ahead of them. So preventing a disease and improving quality of life with that person's future potential is a far better economic and social outcome than focusing on ageing diseases, which are also important. But you think that focusing at the start of life would be a better outcome for.
Prof Nadia [00:28:37] Well, I think that, I mean, I'm not a business person, but I would think that's a much better investment of money at the beginning of someone's life. Then you get a healthy taxpayer out of it. But, that's not the way the funding goes. In fact, a lot of our health dollars are spent on us when we're about to die. And I understand that people have been being taxed all their life. Babies can't speak up for themselves. They're locked away in newborn intensive care units, where people don't really think of it until they find a family member has been exposed to it. And then that does change people's perception. It's also very hard, and we're not very good at explaining when we avoid a disaster. So when I tell someone, look, we've had this happen and it's now costing $1 billion, but when I say to someone, look, by doing this thing, I've saved you $250 million. It somehow doesn't affect people as much. Because that $250 million is going to be taken up by another cause in health anyway. So I found the argument that we are preventing and saving money. It's really very hard to explain, and maybe we're just not good at explaining it.
Paul [00:29:56] To human bias we have. But well, hopefully, though, the achievements that you and the team have made, the opportunity and hope for really preventing and improving quality life will get through to the right people.
Prof Nadia [00:30:09] I mean, again, it's very coarse to talk about money, but of course we should. It's a very expensive condition. I mean, cerebral palsy costs the community $6 billion a year.
Paul [00:30:19] Well.
Prof Nadia [00:30:20] And it costs the families a huge amount in lost income and lost potential. And the earning potential for the person with cerebral palsy is massive as well.
Paul [00:30:32] Yeah. No, it is a huge social cost. And I've read somewhere that the pandemic actually had some positive outcomes for people with cerebral palsy. Yeah, both in the flexibility of work, allowing people to work from home, and even development of vaccines that may help with CMV. So there was some positive outcomes with the pandemic.
Prof Nadia [00:30:53] There were and I think for people with cerebral palsy, for years we've been telling people they couldn't work remotely, but as soon as the pandemic hit, people could, of course, people in certain professions. And then that meant people with cerebral palsy or other disabilities were able to work from home. And that has changed things, and I hope that change will be maintained because we have been discriminating against people with disabilities for a very long time. And it really is about time that we changed, because we're missing out on a group of people who think differently and have a lot to give us as a society. And I think if we don't support people with disabilities or people who are marginalised for other reasons, I'm not sure that's the society I'd really want to live in for very long.
Paul [00:31:45] I think it is improving, though. I think it is heading in the right.
Prof Nadia [00:31:48] Direction, getting some good advocacy. The other thing around the pandemic was that we've been looking to develop a vaccine for cytomegalovirus, CMV, that virus that is affecting probably about 10% of people causing cerebral palsy. The technology around developing a vaccine is the same technology used for the Covid vaccines.
Paul [00:32:12] That's promising.
Prof Nadia [00:32:12] What was interesting to Paul was that, we say prematurity is a big risk factor for cerebral palsy. As I said, during the pandemic, the rate of premature birth dropped in countries like Ireland and Denmark, who were measuring the rate of prematurity in their countries. And they went, oh, hang on, why are we seeing this drop in prematurity? So something about women being able maybe to work from home, the hygiene precautions around Covid, people wearing masks, perhaps that was protecting women and unborn babies. So there's a lot I think we're going to see more and more of that. What happened during that pandemic?
Paul [00:32:56] That's very, very interesting. I'm going to change tech now. And I know you're very humble, but I am going to talk about you and your achievements. And you have a long list of achievements over the last 20 odd years, both here in Australia but globally recognised as an expert. And I know you don't like to talk about, but, you know, how do you feel about your achievements?
Prof Nadia [00:33:19] I think I'm incredibly lucky to be doing work that gives my life meaning. Every day I get up and I have something, I feel something important to do with amazing people. So I go to work and I have a whole team, both places that I work, which is the Cerebral Palsy Alliance and the hospital. I get to work with people who are wanting to make the world a better place. I know it sounds very cheesy, but that's an incredibly wonderful gift. And we're again, you know, we have our issues like everybody else. We squabble over things or look for the next cup of coffee. But again, people who really want to just make the life of families and children better. And I think that's makes me a very, very lucky human. I love babies and children to see them come back. You know, just recently I had, children who'd been very sick. Babies come back into the unit to say hello, and one of them was taller than I am and looking down on me. And I thought, oh my goodness, it was really worth it. And I was thinking, oh, you were so sick. And look at you now. And I think that, you know, it's a wonderful, wonderful privilege, really. And I don't know what I'd do with myself if I wasn't. Doing this sort of work.
Paul [00:34:41] Well, that is one. And that is hugely rewarding. And it just goes to the importance of what you do. But you're also making a difference to the next generation of doctors and nurses and specialists. And I think just like you were, you were mentored by Professor Fiona Stanley. You were influencing, guiding the next generation to, to not only care in the, in ward, but to take on specialist roles and further knowledge which is also rewarding.
Prof Nadia [00:35:10] Yes. And look, I've during the pandemic, a lot of people started asking me to give talks about how to make teams work, because I've been very lucky to work with great teams, and it's made me think a lot about mentorship and sponsorship because I've been so fortunate. I've had people guide and support me and believe in me from a very early age, and I include my parents. They were my first mentors and teachers, my siblings, the community. I've always drawn strength from the people around me. My headmistress in year ten who called me up to the office and I was thinking, oh my God, what does she what have I done? I'm not even that bad a student and she called me up, looked over her glasses and said, if she just add a bit of work, you'd might make a very good doctor. And I walked out thinking that was all she ever said. Let it go. But I call that mentorship. Someone who takes the time to say, what do you want to do? Where are you going with this? All through university and then coming to Australia, Fiona Stanley took a huge gamble on me and something I've really learnt. I she didn't know me from a bar of soap and I just rang her. From Dublin and said, I've heard your colleague Eve Blair talk about how you believe cerebral palsy is not caused by damage during the birth process. And I want to do a PhD and would you take me? So should I actually, I'm coming from Perth to London next week. Let's meet. I flew over, we had a cup of coffee and she went, okay. Yep. Come on. I have a PhD and I think such. You know, I always thought how brave I was going all the way to Perth, but she was brave because it could have been a disaster. But she was really she was always. And she still remains a person who always says yes and then works out how we're going to get there. And that's the model I've taken on, I hope, where sometimes people are critical of that, but I think, let's say yes and then find the way to achieve it if we can. And I think, you know, again, I learn I've learned more from the younger generation than they're learning from me now. It's great. Ideas come from someone who thinks differently. And maybe it's because I'm not a great scientist. I really am an arts person. It's the humanity of medicine that matters more to me. So I learn from people who are skilled at other things. And I know you're going to think this is funny, but one of the best health professionals that I work with is our cleaner Bao. She came from China and she keeps that unit going because she's meticulous about hygiene. She's been working with us for a long time, and her two daughters are now nurses, and her views on things are really interesting. So I think it is about the team getting together. And medicine does not doesn't belong to doctors, nurses or allied health professionals. Belongs to all of us. And I think working together and mentoring each other. I love having school students in the unit. They come and just interesting to hear their perspective. We take school students who want to work in health, and some of them haven't because they realise it's really not for them. But many of them have gone to work in allied health, medicine, nursing, social work. And I think that's really wonderful.
Paul [00:38:47] It's a great example where, you know, humanity and well-being and, and relationships are just as important as the hard science. And, and with mentoring, we can learn off each other. And, and taking a chance on someone can change their lives and has a snowball effect on, on many others. So it's it's a wonderful story. It's still a very difficult environment to work in day in, day out. You know, most babies survive now and thrive. But it's it's emotionally tough dealing with the children, dealing with the families, dealing with the team. How do you relax? How do you cope with it?
Prof Nadia [00:39:23] So to be honest, Paul, there are times when I'm on for newborn intensive care and I suddenly sit bolt upright at three in the morning, and I think of all those little lives on ventilators with the monitors going and all the things that could go wrong. And I literally feel honestly like I'm standing at the edge of a building and about to fall off. But I pull myself back because, try to remember that most of the time it's going to go really well and that there are incredible people working with me. It's not just about me. That's the thing is about falling into the arms of your team. You know, when people go to a concert and they fall back into the audience. Not I'm too much of a control freak to do that, but I will fall into the arms of my team and say, look, we're doing this together. It's not about 1 or 2 heroes. It's about everyone getting together, listening to everybody. Because honestly, the most amazing ideas come from the junior nursing student or medical student or a parent. I've had parents pick up the answer to something because they're clever. That is what sustains me, that I realise I'm just part of a good system, a system that we choose to enable. So in our units and in the research institute, we are a democracy. So yes, someone has to make a final decision a lot of the time, but everybody's voice does get heard, even if it's a bit troubling. We have to swallow our own egos, so that makes it a much safer place than it used to be. So that also makes it less stressful for me. And then I have great family. I have great friends who support me, and, I have a lot of things that I enjoy doing reading podcasts. I'm addicted to podcasts about true crime and business. For some reason, I go out a lot for dinners I. Do make a special time. Also, I realise I'm just a human and I do have to, just relax so I can sleep for hours. And I do not have any sleep deficit because I sleep a lot, and I find that very helpful.
Paul [00:41:39] Now, there's some good points in there that, you know, the best way to look after others is to look after ourselves first and realise that we are part of a team and and involving and listening to the team is the best outcome.
Prof Nadia [00:41:52] And you know what I think is very important and I think the pandemic taught me that is to say, when I'm struggling to just admit it, I remember one day we were having a really rough time during the pandemic, a 22 year old nurse, she said, how are you going? I said, I'm really struggling, actually. I'm missing my family who are overseas. We had to stop parents visiting at one point and siblings, and I found that crushing that we were doing this to families, only allowing one parent at a time. That's not the way we operate. And I felt that again, our humanity was being taken away from us. And I said, I'm really struggling. And I got quite teary, and she put her arms around me and I thought that made such a difference. So I learned during the pandemic to just own it, not wallow in it. That doesn't help anyone but to say when people ask, and then it allows others in your team to share when they're struggling. I think people don't need someone to look fake strong all the time. That's very old fashioned.
Paul [00:42:57] Nadia, I think we are almost out of time, so thank you. You. Wonderful. Despite you won't admit that. But you're amazing. What you do for the team and for the people. Yeah, I see use and, cerebral palsy. So you're very special person, too, just like your team. So thank you. Nadia.
Prof Nadia [00:43:17] Oh. Thank you.
Maggie [00:43:23] And that concludes today's episode. We hope you enjoyed our conversation with Professor Nadia Badawi, and got some great insights into the world of medical research and the fantastic progress being made for people with cerebral palsy. Don't forget to subscribe to the Hearts and Minds podcast wherever you listen so you never miss an episode. Hearts and minds acknowledges the traditional custodians of the land on which we work and record this podcast. The Gadigal people of the Eora nation. We pay our respects to their elders, past, present and emerging. And finally, a quick reminder the content of this podcast is for informational purposes only and does not constitute financial advice. Please consult a professional advisor before making any investment decisions. Thanks again for joining us today.
